RingoJS vs NodeJS

Unless you 've been living in a cave for the last year, you know that server side (better: 'general purpose') JavaScript is all the rage. Everything started with CommonJS: the emerging standard spawned an ecosystem of compatible implementations competing against each other while advancing the JavaScript state of the art.

Then, NodeJS happened: An async only JavaScript platform, powered by V8, not really interested in CommonJS conformance. RY (the new DHH) managed to grab the attention of the developer community with cool marketing, leaving other implementations in the shadows. One such great implementation that deserves more attention is RingoJS.

Some time ago I switched from Narwhal to Ringo and never looked back. I strongly believe that Ringo is the preeminent CommonJS implementation. Here is why:

Ringo is quite possibly the most conformant CommonJS implementation, certainly more conformant than Narwhal and Node.
Ringo is *fast*. If you tried Narwhal/Rhino and found start up times lacking or module reloading unacceptably slow check out Ringo! You will be pleasantly surprised. And while v8 may be faster than Rhino, the JVM is still quite optimized for server side environments. (And btw, in a modern Web application, time spent running the server side script is a negligible percentage of the total request/response cycle. You should probably work on optimizing network issues, database interactions, client side rendering etc)
Ringo is mature, stable and crash free. Ringo is the evolution of Helma, one of the first server side JavaScript platforms (more than 10 years in development). It's also based on the mature Java platform. Contrast this to reports of NodeJS crashes.
Access to the gazillion of Java libraries. There is no merit in reinventing the wheel, just reuse code from the Java ecosystem. The integration between Java and JavaScript is seamless.
Windows compatibility. OK, Windows sucks, but still, a lot of engineers use Windows as a development platform. Ringo apps work on Windows out of the box.
Support for synchronous and asynchronous APIs. Use what's best for your application.
Thanks to AppengineJS you can run your Ringo applications on Google's scalable infrastructure.
The lead developer is extremely talented and friendly.

Stop drinking the Kool-Aid! Engineer your application on top of a mature, conformant and compatible platform: RingoJS.

Update: Removed a controversial link

64 Comments

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eh?

The reason that node.js is so much more popular than Ringo is because it's got prettier, more succinct code, it's easier to get started with, and it's purer... it's not a full-stack, and that's great. And there's no Java required.

If you think it's because of "cool marketing," I'm sorry, you're fooling yourself.

You've got no reason to apologize for using the tools that suit you best, but to imply the rest of us are hoodwinked is not very classy, either.

Yes, git is also a toy, and Java isn't nearly as mature as C. Stop writing your web apps in these fancy languages and use RCS for version control, and just write your web apps in ASM.

RingoJS has elegant, succinct code too... And it's extremely easy to get started with.

And I don't use the full stack either... just the CommonJS stuff and JSGI code...

I agree Node is overhyped right now. Heck, Ryan himself wishes it were less hyped: http://twitter.com/ryah/status/8519974729

Amy: I also agree "cool marketing" isn't the primary reason Node is more popular, but lets be honest, it's not because the code is "prettier".

The biggest reason Node is more popular is it offers a similar event driven model to browsers, which existing JavaScript developers are familiar with, and would like to apply to their server-side work, regardless of whether it's the right tool for the job. It's what they know.

Please don't miss the real point of the article: RingoJS is a great CommonJS implementation, more suitable to a large class of developers working on real world, enterprise applications.

NodeJS may be a fine project, technically strong, but is not the only solution on the server-side JavaScript space.

Hannes and the other developers of Ringo, deserve some credit for their work.

Matthew Riley MacPherson> read my definition of toy in an earlier article. I removed the 'toy' reference btw.

oh, and git ROCKS!

In terms of using prebuilt code, I could argue the ability to use Java as either a plus or a minus. As stated, Node.js is largely about the mindset of using callbacks to perform operations instead of blocking a program while waiting for a call to return. After looking into docs and a small tutorial of RingoJS, I find these problems still persistent, namely, you have blocking io and calls all over. The extraordinary thing about Node is the ease of setup and extending. RingoJS does bring the JVM, but to what effect, the strengths of Java for web development? I would rather have native modules in C where I can perform complex operations and interface with almost anything, including the JVM.

Node.js has received attention because of its async design philosophy that Just Makes Sense and resulting impressive benchmarks.

Node's callbacks can be considered a plus or a minus, on the one hand they are similar to client side javascript and may result in faster code, on the other hand they make your code unnecessary complex.

Moreover, it is a lot easier to use Java libraries in Ringo (almost effortless) than it is to encapsulate C/C++ libraries in NodeJS. And I like to leverage the Java libraries for financial engineering, maths etc, not web related stuff.

KFH: I am not really sure it makes sense to replicate OS functionality (namely concurrency)

"An async only JavaScript platform" - Plenty of functions are synchronous, many others have both sync and async versions. Preferring async over sync based development is a big advantage IMO.

Node.JS does work on Windows now btw.

"The biggest reason Node is more popular is it offers a similar event driven model to browsers, which existing JavaScript developers are familiar with, and would like to apply to their server-side work, regardless of whether it's the right tool for the job. It's what they know."

That's so a Java point of view. Period.

@PTG

"Node.JS does work on Windows now btw."

Link???

RingoJS - is good! Will try to use it in production.

@James Hughs - It works through cygwin natively - http://groups.google.com/group/nodejs/browse_thread/thread/b6e4861de82c895f
Also, there was a port using the JScript although I'm not sure where that project is - http://newcome.wordpress.com/2010/05/08/node-net-node-js-implemented-in-javascript-on-the-net-runtime/

I like that NodeJS isn't limited to just web/networking. While I'm sure you can separate parts of Ringo out, it's likely stuck doing the things that Java tends to be used for which is web.

Also, the async approach doesn't "make" the code any more complex. It's just a different way of writing the code.

Well, cygwin does not really cut it...
RingoJS is not limited to web/networking either...
The async approach most certainly makes the code more complex, and harder to debug or reason about.

Great post baby!

I would have to disagree with an absolute statement such as "There is no merit in reinventing the wheel". There is merit in re-using existing libraries, but there's also cost (e.g. the weight of legacy, terrible APIs) to content with. It's a balance between re-invention and re-using that should be aimed for. It's hard because it's not black and white.

By you absolute argument, Javascript wouldn't even exist, because creating another language is also a form of "re-inventing the wheel". And we should be writing C in the browser. or Lisp. Or Ada...

Benjamin Nortier: everyone can find counterexamples about anything. the argument *is* true. Programming languages are a great example of NIH syndrome in action. In fact I agree, Netscape could have used something like Python or Lisp instead of JavaScript.

George. I'm glad you've decided to do some more marketing around RingoJS. I firmly believe that more server-side js implemetations equals faster innovation and progress. Eventually things will start to converge towards standards, or at least greater API conformance. The community will demand it so that modules can be more portable.

I think the tone of some of your arguments in this article ruins some of the persuasiveness (it also brings out the trolls). As for re-inventing the wheel, I think that's a pretty ineffective argument, and at least somewhat hypocritcal. The commonjs community has spent the last year reinventing wheels in javascript. Or, put another way, there were no wheels in javascript so it's fair game to invent them as you see fit. Node has chosen to re-use C libraries rather than Java. I can't really understand why you think that's different. At the end of the day, there are plenty of reasons to reinvent the wheel, including but not limited to:

1) You're learning
2) You're opinionated about what you want and it doesn't exist in the form you like.
3) You think you can do better (and sometimes you're right)

Marco: For every rule there is an exception, some times you have to 'do your thing'. But really you have to try to leverage the hard work of other people first.

Don't get me wrong, I am as guilty as anyone in reinventing the wheel. After a lot of misguided efforts I came to realize that in most cases it is better to stick with a standard, battle tested solution than starting from scratch. Trying to leverage the code of other people is often the right thing to do.

I am sorry you find my tone aggressive, I guess everyone has his style. On the other hand, I am happy you can look beyond the wording to the actual message: there is a great CommonJS implementation, give it a try!

i dont like it

carry on :)

Interesting thoughts. I agree with many points, especially with Helma/RingoJS being more mature. AppJet is/was running Helma on the frontend servers for years.

Another aspect, RingoJS/Rhino also provides sand-boxing techniques which make it perfect for hosted offerings. I am still looking for something comparable to allow Node.js to be hosted without full virtualization.

Node.js though is cool and worth the hype.

Good article George. I think ringojs needs all the promotion it can get - Helma has lnagusihed for years in obscurity while being a fanstatic webapp platform that in many ways was far better the RoR especially for former Java web developers and yet most of them jumped on the RoR bandwagon due to DHHs big mouth marketing of RoR.

Ringojs is definitely much better suited then Node to a lot of the common webdev app that people need to build. Not everyone is in the business of building a twitter clone. For those of us who need to talk to a existing systems such as SQL DBs Ringo's Java libs provide an answer to somethign that is almost impossible in Node due to its async design.

As always its about [ickign the right tool for the job and pretty much any general purpose webapp dev wher you don't have enourmous real-time throughput, ringojs is just the simplier and easier alternative to Node.

Maks: you nailed it!

This is a very unfortunate article. George, I know you're a good guy. I've seen you on the commonjs list forever. I know you're just trying to pimp a platform you believe in and work on, and I'm sure that Ringo is great. But I strongly disagree with your approach here, and it saddens me. Every time someone tweets a link to this article and it shows up in the #node.js room, I think "Ack, that again?" Instead of trying to say that NodeJS isn't all that, you should instead have positive things to say about your own project.

The "reports of nodejs crashes" link is a bit silly. Programs crash for a lot of reasons. Even JVM programs. Hell, even *erlang* programs. That's why there are things like Monit for when you need to handle those crashes effectively. The article you linked to is about how to hook Monit up to monitor your nodejs programs. Would you advise against Apache or nginx because someone told you how to use it with Monit?

Here are some things you haven't mentioned:

1. The JVM is *BIG*. It's a memory hog. Access to those libraries comes at a cost, as does cross-platform bytecode. Maybe that matters, maybe it doesn't.
2. Most IO that RingoJS does (really, that JVM does) is synchronous and blocking. Threads aren't free. Again, maybe that matters, maybe it doesn't. Not all web servers have to be fast or efficient. Rails is proof of that. If you're running on GAE, then they can throw plenty of hardware at the problem and not even notice.
3. NodeJS works fine on Cygwin. You'd be insane to deploy it on Windows or Mac, though.
4. Comparing Ry to DHH is just absurd. Have you met the guy? Your last bulletpoint may be true of Ringo, but it's definitely also true of NodeJS. He's one of the most chill and friendly people I've ever known. He has opinions about how IO should be done, and has implemented his ideas, and a lot of people agree.

It's not Kool-Aid. It's not just hype. The reason that NodeJS is so popular is because it's a good model, a consistent model, one that most of us are familiar with from using it for many years in the browser. It's the same model that nginx and Lighttpd have used to great effect in the web server space.

NodeJS is powerful, lightweight, consistent, and the community is active, large, and friendly. I don't know why you'd want to spread FUD about it. Good software is so rare in this world, we ought to investigate where there is attention and have these conversations from a position of trying to find out the good so that we can share it, rather than trying to convince people that the attention is misplaced. If it's this popular, while still being this young and unstable, then clearly NodeJS is doing SOMETHING right.

What especially saddens me is that this article prompts people in the NodeJS community to fight back. It's the first volley in a flame war that can not help anyone even a little. When you say Node's no good (which, intentional or not, is the takeaway from this article), and then someone finds out it is pretty good, you look like you don't know what you're talking about, and that reflects badly on you and on RingoJS; and likewise if anyone in the NodeJS community talks trash on RingoJS. In a flame war, we all get burnt.

Isaac: Thanks for taking the time to write this detailed comment. While I don't agree with everything you say, I agree with your conclusion: nodejs is doing something right and a flame war is not beneficial to the commonjs ecosystem.

Isaac: like you, I would prefer if people evangelized Ringo on its own merits and without contrasting it to Node or other projects. The sad thing is that wouldn't nearly have had the effect that George's post had. And that's not just human nature, it's also something that Node and Ryah are partly to blame for.

True, Ryah may be the anti-DHH personality-wise. But in his talks, there's one message he's been getting out very consistently, and that's that threads are broken and blocking IO is stupid. I've heard it personally at jsconf.eu, and there's this quote from jsconf.us that everything besides Node is a toy. Clearly, the message has been that every other approach to server-side JS basically sucks. Now compared to that George's post actually looks pretty sober, doesn't it?

Regarding threads and blocking IO: it may be true that many implementations of these are broken or crippled, such as those in the traditional Ruby and Python runtimes. But you know what: on the JVM threads actually work (and scale) pretty well, and if you want, it's pretty easy to write fast, correct, thread-safe code in Ringo.

So the next time you talk to hundreds or thousands of developers, if you have to use a catchy slogan, maybe add a little subtitle, like: "Threads suck! (except on that fat old JVM)".

Now for the "positive evangelism" part: I just set up a new weblog where I plan to do just that. Click on the link above to get there. I'm also a planning to write a follow-up to this Ringo-Node comparison that will add a few more aspects and hopefully be fair. Stay tuned. There's more than one non-sucky option for server-side JS.

Hannes: at last, an official RingoJS blog ;-) can't wait for more informative RingoJS posts...

I actually started by reading the comments and only then, the actual post. In that perspective, I think that there is some exaggeration in the comments. Having said that, I think that a lot of people heard about RingoJS because of Node's "hype", so instead of establishing yet another divide, the SSJS community has everything to gain in joining efforts.

Node's non-blocking, event driven approach is a breath of fresh air. Rhino's Java & GAE integration, provides a very credible solution for "enterprise class" software. Let's enjoy the best in both and not create more silos.

Anyway, enjoyed the article and the discussion :)

I highly doubt that Rhino can compare to V8 as far as speed / efficiency is concerned. Node has buzz because it's built upon the first new JS engine thats designed from the ground up for speed. I think were entering into a new tech trend, where "hardware is cheap, just make it work, don't worry about bloat, object design is everything" is giving way to streamlined efficiency. V8 embodies that mantra. squeezing more from less... who knows maybe we'll see some new languages for V8 ;-)

Will people please stop using this "enterprise" software moniker. There is no such thing, there's software, fast, slow, old, crap but at the end of the day it's just software. I work with this so called "enterprise" level software. Most of it is bullshit.

Rhino is fast. RhingoJS is just a brilliant implementation on top of Rhino that was developed over more that 10 years (former Helma, Helma NG).

@tofui We use RingoJS at Erbix (http://www.erbix.com) starting a different Rhino/RingoJS engine for each account. It's fast, reliable, robust, multi-threaded. We serve PostgreSQL content, virtual static files, render templates for 100% JavaScript template engines, etc. Erbix.com is just an ordinary app on top of Erbix itself.

Erbix, looks interesting (even though it competed in a crowded market...)

@George Moschovitis Erbix delivers the first Marketplace for server-side JavaScript. Also, in comparison with other small business apps environments, it is the most welcoming for developers. Unlike Zoho Creator, for example, Erbix has virtually no limitations as to what kind of apps for small businesses can be developed.

The other cloud computing platforms based on server-side JavaScript have a "test JavaScript in the browser" approach.

I try to correct some of the absolute incorrect comments above.
Node.js provides many APIs to SQL ( Modules ftw)
Node.js provides also many APIs to noSQL ( Modules ftw)
Node.js dont crashes that often, and if it does, there is a good solution to run it forever : http://blog.nodejitsu.com/keep-a-nodejs-server-up-with-forever

I wont say anything about Ringo, cause i dont know it, but to say that node code would be unnecessary complex is just bullshit. You just have to be Async on the Server-Side if you go into serious business AND be fast. And have JS and not be async is just blasphemy.

Blocking IO is just stupid, there is no more stupid thing in the world than Blocking IO. And anybody who writes JS, know how to handle these callbacks, and know how he can write named functions to get no Inception. Node Code is not overly complex, its good.

And to the point of threads: They Suck, and they dont run well even in a JVM, cause the whole point of threads are that they a slower the more connections you have. Threads are nothing that should be considered for performance, except for the absolute ground bottom Layer : OS.

More benchmarks and reality check. Anyone can say threads suck, the JVM is bloated, or Async IO is the bees knees. I find most Javascript developers (who come from web/client work) are the worst culprits in pidgeon-holing "java developers" and the JVM as being this bloated, horrible stuff. But magically, someone who coded html/js/css and DOM stuff can now be an expert on server-side architectures and threaded versus async io, and the Google V8 "magic" ?

please.

Hannes Wallnöfer did the benchmarks. Ryan does his. Look at them. The Ringo ones are pretty impressive for real world use. If you have tons of blocking IO, Node js makes a ton of sense. To think that the entire worlds software problems can be solved by Node, well, good luck.

Choose the platform you want, I think the most relevant comment here is Hannes. He walks the walk and shows real benchmarks. Where are the Node people to defend the 2x performance Ringo is getting ?

http://hns.github.com/2010/09/29/benchmark2.html

My only comment is, out of all this, the Node JS community seem to be the only ones who appear to be condescending for anyone/everyone who uses threads, or any other approach that doesn't sit on Node and the Magic V8 ball. I've heard in two talks from Ryan that developers are essentially too stupid to be able to handle threaded programming, and all threads implementations are wrong (really?) (beyond whatever overhead they create in the system). Yes, the numbers of Node look impressive for async IO, and yes, we all know NGINX architecture is the same, and wow, Node in a precanned test can serve up as many static files as NGINX ;-)

Interesting benchmark.
And thanks for the light on ringo, i'll try it out =)

Btw Google code appengine link in the article is wrong/broken; replace "www" by "code" in the link ;)

It seems to me that George is angry for been second place again. Nitro and Og were better alternatives than Rails when all the Ruby hype started, but it lacked the marketing. It's not to blame DHH or someone for that. I realy don't know Rhingo so I can't compare, but to me it seems that Node is really interesting project and developers are attracted by that.

Rhino is About to Get a Lot Faster
http://www.infoq.com/news/2011/07/rhino-invokedynamic

My Common Node project (http://olegp.github.com/common-node/) may be of interest to those following this discussion. The package implements a number of CommonJS proposals on top of Node.js using node-fibers allowing for Ringo apps to run on Node. I also include some benchmarks that build on the ones that Hannes put together comparing the performance of Node, Common Node & Ringo.

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